Another moment in history

[tvordlj]

Yesterday was the anniversary of the death of playwright Ben Jonson who died in 1637. Why do you care? Well in my Forgotten English calendar, yesterday's word was "ure" which means a dampish mist or atmospheric haze but an earlier meaning also was "to pray" which lead the creators of the calendar to Ben Jonson because... (yes i'm getting to the point) he was apparently buried upright in a small 1 x 1 foot plot in the floor of Westminster Abbey (Poet's Corner?) and on his epitaph was written "O rare Ben Jonson". Some say it was supposed to be "Orare" which means 'to pray' as in to pray for him but as he wasn't particularly religious, "O rare" probably is more appropriate anyway.

I then wondered about historical dates that happened before the establishing of the Gregorian Calendar in 1582. Are we saying that, for instance, the death of Henry VIII on January 28, 1547 is adjusted for the modern calendar or was it the actual date it happened in that timeline? If that's the case, on our calendar, it should be 10 days earlier. were historical dates adjusted to match our modern calendar? Any of you historians out there know? yeah i know. I'll just get me coat, shall i? I can't help it. These things occur to me and i know there are historians and history geeks like me out there on my flist that might know the answer.

So yesterday, Mom and i picked up my auntie and we drove down further into the countryside to visit my cousin in Jeddore. She's got a lovely garden and one very active doggie, Daisy. Mom and I also did a bit of shopping on Sunday when i took the car back to her, and though i tried on a lot of things, i didn't end up buying anything. Most of what i tried on were either too small or too short. I hate short tops. Even when i was thinner (never *thin* just less of me than there is now) i hated short tops that cut right across the middle of my stomach and hips. I'm tall and have big boobs and i'm far more comfortable with loose tops that go down past my hips. Short tops aren't too bad with a skirt but i rarely wear those much. Cotton Ginny does have a few tops in "longer length" which is a normal length for me but in the end, i didn't really need any new tank tops.

I do have to get one of those Tide spot remover sticks though. Apparently they really do work and i have tops that have stains on them that the washing machine either has put on or that just won't get out. I swear there are more blotches on the tops when they come out of the laundry than when they went in even though i put liquid stain remover on them. Mom tried that Tide stick and said it really works so i'm having a go. I think the drugstore might have them, i'll check later. Also want to get some extra strength stain remover for laundry purposes. The stuff i bought is the generic brand and it's not as good as the name brand (usually i get Shout).

Still no newspaper delivered by 7 a.m. this morning. Am going to call and shout at the office again. No not really but i'll call every day it's not there on time. I'm pretty sure someone is covering the regular person for vacation but they're still supposed to have it there on time and those of us that leave early and take the paper to work are inconvenienced. Bah.

Comments

[medusa.livejournal.com]

I am pretty sure that the date is adjusted to fit in with the Gregorian calendar as both dates (pre and post Gregorian) are given in a lot of my more serious History text books. I am ashamed to say though that I have never really given much thought to it!

[tvor.livejournal.com]

I don't think i've had a history text that has both dates in. But then i didn't go to University where i would have taken the courses there. I went to technical college instead. I've thought i might like to take some courses as a mature student when i retire though i am not sure i'd manage to retrain myself for study and writing papers etc. anymore lol

[medusa.livejournal.com]

Yes, it tend to occur, but not that often, in the texts I used at university. It always struck me as a bit pedantic really but is probably of use to someone. :)

I think you should definirely do some courses! I have the same worries about going back to do my MA as I haven't had to write an essay for ages so am going to ask for some practise essay titles or something before I start so I can practise. It is scary though!

[medusa.livejournal.com]

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates) is quite interesting.

[tvor.livejournal.com]

ohmygod. my head just exploded lol not only do the days matter, but the years could be different too! agghh! lolol i don't think i realized that one. Or if i did know, i'd long forgotten.

[medusa.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think that when I was studying pre change history I would only concern myself with whether the year and maybe the month was correct. It all gets a bit complex though if you think about it too much, which is why I don't as dates already confuse me enough as it is!

[tvor.livejournal.com]

It is complicated isn't it? But fascinating. However, it's not something i'm going to vex myself with too much when i read things in future. I'm glad i did ask the question though because i'm enjoying this! Sad innit lol

[medusa.livejournal.com]

Hahah, no not sad at all. You should see some of the stuff that I will spend hours researching sometimes! ;)

[tvor.livejournal.com]

Pedantic yes, but interesting nonetheless :)))

I won't do it before i retire, mainly because of the time factor. If i take early retirement in about 6 years, i'll have the days free and not have to worry about night courses etc. I wouldn't really be that interested in going for a degree but you never know. My mother's best friend started off taking a couple of courses just for interest and ended up 10 years later with a degree.

[medusa.livejournal.com]

That would be so cool and I hope you do get to do it. :)

[maleficent.livejournal.com]

I think the dates are usually given as tehy would have appeared on the calendar on the wall, as it were. Thus, Henry died on 28th January pre-Gregorian change. I don't think any historians would bother converting the dates. I'm not sure there would be any point, as far as academia goes.

[medusa.livejournal.com]

Ah, is it that way around? I have never really thought about but just accepted the dates as they are. I might have a look at a pre change document and then cross reference the date, just out of interest.

[maleficent.livejournal.com]

Well, I've always assumed it would be as the dates would be taken from primary sources in the first instance. Would be interesting to check though. I have some collections of letters by various Tudors at home which I'm sure could be cross referenced.

[medusa.livejournal.com]

I am not sure but as I commented above, I have some texts where two dates are given to reflect the change of calendar but have never concerned myself with it too much so long as the year and month remain accurate. ;)

Am currently trying to find a dated letter amongst my stuff but the earliest I can find is Mary Stuart's final letter from 1587 which is annoying! It isn't my period though. :(

[tvor.livejournal.com]

That would be quite interesting, re the letters. I think it makes sense that they would be the dates as they originally occurred but then if we're commemorating the anniversary of an event, birth or death, then we're commemorating it incorrectly. I know it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things but it's an interesting point, i thought.

[blueberrymoon.livejournal.com]

My head hurts.
The Gregorian calendar can, for certain purposes, be extended backwards to dates preceding its official introduction, producing the proleptic Gregorian calendar. However, this proleptic calendar should be used with great caution.

For ordinary purposes, the dates of events occurring prior to 15 October 1582 are generally shown as they appeared in the Julian calendar, and not converted into their Gregorian equivalents.

However, events occurring in countries where the Gregorian calendar was introduced later than 4 October 1582 are a little more contentious. For example, in Great Britain and its overseas possessions (then including the American colonies), the new calendar was not introduced until 14 September 1752. How, then, would people date events occurring in Britain and her possessions in the 170 years between 1582 and 1752? The answer depends very much on the context, but writers who want to avoid confusion make it absolutely clear which calendar is being used. People have avoided changing historical records in Britain deriving from this period; however, it is often highly desirable to translate particular Old Style dates into their New Style equivalents, such as where the context includes reference to other countries that had already converted to New Style before Britain did. Astronomers avoid this ambiguity by the use of the Julian day number.

If comparisons of dates are done using different calendars, we can encounter logical absurdities such as William and Mary of Orange seeming to arrive in London to accept the English crown, a week or so before they left the Netherlands; and Shakespeare and Cervantes apparently dying on exactly the same date (23 April 1616), when in fact Cervantes predeceased Shakespeare by 10 days in real time. This coincidence however has allowed UNESCO to make 23 April the World Book and Copyright Day.

[tvor.livejournal.com]

I know! my head hurts too. There's a link above that also reminds you that the new year started around March 25 so not only could the date be off 10 days but the year might show wrong as well! I think i would assume that the dates given are as they originally were if no notice was mentioned about new or old style but if the books i've read were adjusted for our calendar, i wouldn't know anyway unless it was specified.